Episode 125 - Leading in a New Moral Code with Gabe Lyons
Truth is still truth in the marketplace of ideas. But society has constructed a new moral code that makes it difficult to navigate. So, how do we navigate winsomely in a world when 42% of people think that people of faith are not the help, or the answer, but rather the problem?
Gabe Lyons, founder of Q Media has spent a decade wading into the data and bringing out the conversations that we need to have as Christ Followers and to make sure we understand the waters we’re wading into each day when we go into the marketplace.
Listen in to hear the entrepreneurial journey of Q Media, the questions Gabe is asking, and how you can begin to think more critically about culture and your role in creating it.
Episode Transcript
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Henry Kaestner: Gabe, very grateful to have you on the show. Hey, so much we want to cover today, but we want to start the show by hearing you give us an introduction to what is. Q When did it start? Where did the vision come from? Take us into the entrepreneurial journey that brought you here today.
Gabe Lyons: Well, thank you, guys. It's so great to be with you and just excited for this conversation. Like you said, Henry, 15 years ago, God just planted this vision in my heart to try to bring leaders together and make sure Christians were actually being as smart as everybody else about all the issues that we're facing as a community in the world. And we wanted to create a space where Christians were forced to think well and to be challenged by new ideas to be exposed to different experts. That had maybe been different viewpoints on how to engage some of the current issues and cultural issues ahead of us. Now, after 13 years of working on that, we realized I mean, this is my first time growing up, you know, being an adult. Right. I'm sure every generation looks at it this way, but every year it feels like there's just one hundred new issues, one hundred new topics, so many new things that we need to be smart about and need to be aware of. And I know historically Christians were smart. We took the time to understand the issues. We were looked at in many different areas of our culture as being wise, of being able to bring together and synthesize a lot of different voices and pieces of information and intelligence to have a really thoughtful and prudential way forward that would lead to human beings having an abundant life and flourishing. And so we just want to see that be the case in our generation. And so we see. Q Which stands for questions as a place we can ask some of those big questions and we do that through events. We do that through online learning. We do it through a media platform called Q Media. And so it's just been fun over 15 years now to see just tens of thousands of people start to find one another and realize that as Christians, there is this common desire that we both stay faithful to what the word of God teaches us about what is true, about what is lasting and what is eternal, but also really mix it up daily in the midst of any industry that we've been called to and be a part of bringing about good and redemption within the.
Henry Kaestner: So you've got this incredible Web site with some of the best content in the industry and by industry I mean that Christ-following industry, people thoughtful about their Christian faith. Your thoughtful. Everything's got great production value and it's super comprehensive. What are some of the things on your Web site that are your personal favorites, things that you might even say are kind of top 10, the greatest hits for somebody that's visiting the Q Web site for the first time?
Gabe Lyons: Well, thank you, Henry. It means a lot. And I think, you know, our goal from the beginning was to create a space that was excellent, that people who didn't enjoy going to conferences and being talked at all day would actually find enjoyment in what their experience was with q So all of our talks are nine minutes long or 18 minutes long. So they're compact, they're precise, they're by experts that we have gone out and curated and found and even commission talks that allow people to actually get to hear the best of the best talk about the issues that they're concerned with. And so, for example, you know, even a couple of weeks ago had a great talk by God, and you've all of it. He's talking about institutions and how much our institutions have been crumbling over the last 20 years and people are losing their faith and their trust in institutions. And we've been using institutions in the wrong way. We've been using them as platforms to kind of build our own personal brands. They've been very much about self interest. We see it in our politics. We see it in our media. And he's bringing to the Christian community. He's a Jewish man. He's not a Christian, but he brings to the Christian community a way of thinking about the need for institutions because they actually form us. The institutions aren't there to just support us and become a place we build a platform off of. They're actually there to shape and form us into better human beings. So I'm excited about that particular talk. I think it has a lot to say, especially in the moment that we're in right now culturally about the opportunity we have in the future the minute we talk about the issues. I mean, I think what I love is having deeper conversations around areas of concern right now in our society where we don't know how to be civil anymore. So we're talking about the election. We're talking with different people who are faithful Christians that have different viewpoints on politics, on what is the Christians role in politics. We talk about issues of gender and sexuality, some of the topics you're just not allowed to touch anymore in a public setting. We actually go there because we feel like people are talking about this. They're trying to find their way through this. They want the best insight and information and stories and trusted voices. And so we're trying to provide that to them. And so when I go into our platform Kube media, we've actually created these current issue playlists. It's my favorite thing because it allows you to really dial in on a current issue that maybe you or your children or your friends are having conversations around and actually bring some good thinking into it. So we have those around mental health. We have those around this subject of faith and work, gender, sexuality, how we're thinking about feminism, how we think about politics in the election, technology and artificial intelligence. So all of those playlists to me are just really fun because any particular day read a news story and there's probably something more behind it that if you take the time to watch one of these nine minute talks, you get some deep inside.
Henry Kaestner: So you just bridged into this concept that you had the chance to dove in hundreds of different topics and seems like the list is never exhaustive. There's always something new. There's always great things at your conferences, on the Web site, etc. You've talked about sexuality, politics, faith integration. Can you get more specific about some of things that you find people are talking about now, maybe in a different way than they were two or three years ago when you started putting so many things up?
Gabe Lyons: Yeah. You know, a lot of the people we serve are part of the local church. And I think the discussion around the role of a local church in the 21st century has been one that evolves. And it's evolving really quickly now because we're being forced in a new situation where people are having to ask that question again. And anytime we find in our society, we're having to ask the bigger question, I think really good fruit comes out of it. I think we've seen that in the justice arena. You know, 20 years ago, the Christian church. There were some pockets talking about justice. I wouldn't have said that was one of the top three or four things that would have been listed as concerns for many Christians 20 years ago. The way that that has become a key concern now is both racial justice, socioeconomic justice, how we think about the poor, how we don't just think about it, but we actually are creating programs and doing good and doing things that actually help lift people up. Those conversations, I would say every few years, depending on the latest exposure, where are we seeing injustice takes on a new perspective and actually gives us some new creativity. I think the faith and work space, as you guys know full well, has been an evolving conversation over the last decade. And thankfully, so many more young people realize that God's calling on their life into any space where they have talent, where they have passion, where they have a gifting, where they see something broken that's in need of redemption and fixing that. They feel so empowered now in a way that just a few years ago that was questionable. And so I think. To not get into too many of the current issues, but certainly the current issues fuels so much of the conversation.
Mental health has been one over the last few years, suicide. How do we think? Well, about our emotional health. The rhythms that we're going to have in our life that allow us to actually flourish and thrive so that we have something to offer. The wellbeing conversation has become a much bigger conversation. I'm finding as of the last couple of years, and I think that's really positive. It's a positive swing back. As we look at how much we're busy in many ways are too productive and need to step back. I think some of those conversations that are starting to write set are really important and starting to happen more and more.
William Norvell: Hey, Gabe, William here. Thanks for walking us through that. And so good to meet you. I know some of our listeners probably think we know everyone but longtime listener from the stage first time meeter. So good to meet you. I love what you do. I've been a big fan for a while and you know, I'd love to dive in. I know in a talk you've done before, you've talked about this concept of a new moral code. I'd love for you to tell our listeners a little bit about that. But one of the things I've heard, written or seen is that you said 42 percent of people believe that people of faith are part of the problem in society. And by my count, including our executive producer, Justin, that means two of the five of us are part of the problem. And so we can have our listeners write in who they think that is and be a fun game for everyone. .
Rusty Rueff: You're so self actualized, William. You look, you know, you're the problem, but that's OK. Go ahead.
William Norvell: Yeah. Yeah. I just want everyone to tell me that I can take it easier now if I get data. I can accept it. Tell us about that. That's fascinating. And how did we get to that point, in your opinion? Where do we go from here? How do we start changing that? I know that the deep desire of everyone to not want that to be an answer to the survey question. And in your experience, where are we and how do we go?
Gabe Lyons: Well, I think what you're referring to the study that David Cameron I wrote a book called Good Faith Being a Christian Society thinks you're irrelevant and extreme. And we were extrapolating some of this data about how many people in American life this was. 2016 viewed Christians as extreme. And they reported 42 percent said people of faith are part of the problem. And part of that we can see just in the number of people who currently just don't identify with any religion. Certainly in the younger generations, we've seen the numbers spike in the number of people who aren't interested in being associated with any religion. Part of that is the label. And the need to get social capital out of being called a Christian or religious person is gone. That incentive has moved on. And so people are more free now to just say what they really think and what it really means when people say people of faith are part of the problem.
I think it speaks to this greater spirit of the age. And it's the idea that people of faith, I mean, people of true faith, practicing Christians, do believe there's a moral order to things. They do believe there's right and wrong that exists outside of their feelings or exist outside of just their take on something. When you start to insert that into a world that has in many ways decided that we are our own God, we get to decide what's right and wrong. You can't tell anybody else what to do or why. What they're doing actually could be bad for them or is wrong when that's actually become the chief sin.
That's the cardinal sin. To tell somebody what they're doing isn't up to par with what you think is good. You can see quickly why those who actually continue to say there is a moral law outside of ourselves that I want to follow, that you would see that as a bit of a rub against what you want to do in the world. And so I think that's part of it. That's not the whole story. Part of the story is how religious and we've seen this throughout the ages can be used in some ways to create a self-righteous community that is very judgmental, that decides who's in and who's out and isn't very welcoming. But what I find more is it's not that the church is becoming less welcoming. I think we actually have seen a church become more more welcoming, more interested in the outsider, in the person who's not particularly a part of their community. What we're seeing is the bigger shift in the sort of mental atmosphere that we all live in now, where permission has been given to disdain religion, to disdain any type of moral order. And so part of the new moral code that you're referencing is in our research, we saw that nine out of 10 people believe that the best way to find themself is to look within themselves. Right. And when you see that and hear that at surface level, it sounds like, okay, yeah, maybe I'm supposed to do that is just to look at my talents and myself and decide, you know, how to find myself. But, you know, for Christians, the reality is we don't look to ourself to find our calling. We actually look outside of ourself. We look to God who sits as a fixed point outside of us. And because we're looking to God and what is it that he's trying to do in the world and how might he want to use me? That's how I actually start to find my purposes. And so it's those types of ways of thinking that are new. And that's a new moral order that really hasn't exist. Another one. You know that. Eighty six percent believe that to be fulfilled in life, you should pursue the things you desire most. So it's a basic American dream kind of concept, like if you want to feel that fulfillment and fill the container with all the things that you want. The reality is we know that doesn't lead us to a happier life. It doesn't actually make us more fulfilled. We're more fulfilled and we give ourselves away. Or when we use anything that's been given to us as stewards to actually serve those others who maybe don't have access to the same privileges. So I think the in general, what we're finding is people are starting to just believe that if you criticize someone else's choices in life, you're the problem. We saw in the data. Eighty nine percent, as I was referencing earlier, almost nine out of 10 people think you're the problem. If you have any critique of how somebody looks their life. So I wouldn't advocate that we're supposed to walk around being critical people and constantly judging people. But to dismiss the fact that if you actually believe the way in which you're living is good and does lead to life, it leads to flourishing. And you see other people who are living in a way that actually leads to death. Well, as Christians, part of your role as a friend, part of your role in a family, part of your role in creating a culture in your company is you're going to point those things out because you want people to do better. You want to lead them in a new way that's everlasting. And so I think part of this new moral code basically disdains that and says you're not allowed to do that anymore. And so that's the kind of environment I think, that we're in. And therefore, a lot of the world looks at us as Christians or people of faith and says, look, you're part of the problem. Just be quiet. Stay out of it. I don't want more religion in my life. And that's kind of set up this current atmosphere.
William Norvell: Interesting. And how do we move forward now? You said some big words there that I think are unfortunately more and more associated with Christian judgment, exclusivity, things that I don't personally find in scripture. And I think most listeners would say, yes, we're not called to that. Right. Maybe we're called to criticize evil and things like that. But it shouldn't come from a place of judgment. It shouldn't come from a place of excluding others. Actually, it's the most inclusive religion in the history of the world. And we're called to love and look at the plank in our own eye before we do those criticisms. And all those things that I think everyone will be nodding along saying, yes, that's not the role of the church. Right. That's not how we're supposed to be viewed out there. But we are. Do you have data to back it up? Right. I mean, this is overwhelming data. How do we move forward from that? How do we change that perception slowly as these things usually take slow turns? But what would be your thoughts on how we as a Christian culture can move forward?
Gabe Lyons: Well, I mean, historically, we know, even sociologically perceptions that people have usually come from an experience they've had with a person and a personal experience. And it's not just that they're believing some larger narrative or maybe a media narrative, as some would like to blame for a person's perception. But I think when we realize it really comes down to in-person experiences, we start to feel more empowered that we can actually create change. And we can do that by one on one, actually connecting with people and demonstrating something very different than what they perceive of a Christian. But I will say there are a lot of stories of Christians in this current age who've been great neighbors, who've served their communities well for many, many years. And even after all of that, the fact that they hold an opinion that's actually biblically faithful still rules them out. And I don't want to shy away from that part of the conversation. There isn't exclusivity to Christianity. And I think as much as the world, you know, would love for Christianity to be all inclusive and essentially suggest that it doesn't really matter what you believe, you can be one of us. And actually, that is a big competing ideology of the day. And I think for a lot of younger Christians, it's one that they're very susceptible to because it feels loving to suggest that there's nothing exclusive about Christianity yet. That's not true. Christianity does have an exclusivity in Christ. And because of that, it plays into this 90 percent critique problem, because it appears that if you believe that and you believe the way that Jesus leads to life. Then it automatically means that some people are out and some people aren't going to follow along with that, or it can seem like you're judging them when in fact, as a Christian, we're just trying to understand scripture and trying to best follow Jesus. And everybody's welcome to jump in. But you don't get to write your own rules. You don't get to come up with your own new biblical moral code that you're going to live by. And that suggests anybody who doesn't subscribe to that is no longer a loving Christian. And I do think that's one of these new dynamics that we do need to face, is that within the Christian community, even there is a Christian light that's kind of happening in our society right now that's taking a lot of the younger generation with them who have bought into this idea that to be a faithful Christian means I actually can't have any lines. I don't need to have any lines. I don't need to talk about some of the truth lines that are really clear in scripture. And I do think that's a danger for the Christian community. So I say that just a caution that our number one goal isn't that everybody would necessarily just look at Christianity and say there's nothing that unique about it. And I can be in or out. Our number one goal should be to demonstrate the love of Christ, but also stay faithful, because I think in the age that we're in, people are looking for something with a little grit to it and something that requires something of us, not just it can be all whatever we want to anybody. We don't have to have any clear kind of convictions. I don't think that's the future. And even if that would lead to the church, quote unquote, growing in the short term, I don't think in the long term it actually will be lasting. So I know that's a little bit like over the top maybe, or I'm bringing some thoughts here that can seem harsh to somebody listening who says I want Christianity to just be all loving in my own term and definition of love. But we see in Christ definition of love, true love. You lay yourself down for a friend. True love doesn't just sort of pat your friends on the back as they go and do whatever they want and make them feel like that's OK. You actually step into your friend's life and you help them because, you know, there's a way that leads to more life. So I'll jump off the soapbox.
Rusty Rueff: So, Gabe, I think that's a great way of describing a world view of where things are. And what I really like about all of that is it doesn't mean that our faith is not welcoming. Right. We do welcome people into our faith. But I liked the way that you talked about the guardrails in there. So a lot of things are changing around us, obviously. Here we sit in this Copan 19 moment, and you guys took a little bit of a whack here recently with your Q conference, your 2020 conference. But you persevered. You went through and you found a way to make it possible. In a way, the dreaded thought about before. Take us all through that. And what do you learn? How did you have to adapt? I kind of what came out of it.
Gabe Lyons: Yeah, well, I mean, I think for all of us, you know, it was a surprise how quickly things were ramping up in terms of cancelations. And when you're in the light of the world, which is what we do once a year, we have this major event and it happens to fall in late April, which means most people are making those final travel plans in February and March. You realize that a pandemic is going to completely change the game. And fortunately, I was staying kind of aware of Cauvin 19 in late January. I don't know why I'd read a story. I understood that this thing could be coming and for whatever reason. By mid-February with our team was saying, you know what, we need to start planning with some different models of mine just in case our event is affected in some way. I didn't imagine the event would be affected in the way of how you actually can't have people travel. It was more that I don't know that many people are going to want to travel. We probably need to have an online option. But what we did is we built up remodels as a team. It was a mild disruption. It was a moderate disruption and it was a major disruption. And we literally built three different financial models based on those three ideas. We started working on new policies of how we would communicate. And keep in mind, this was like probably three weeks before it got to a point where it was starting to get clear. We probably are going to have to cancel this. And so I rebranded my whole team and they're working on the whiteboard and, um, coming up with, like, OK, I need you guys to be thinking through this piece of it. And people kind of looking at me like deer in headlights, like, I think you're crazy. Like, I don't think it's gonna be this bad. For whatever reason, was able to kind of at least prepare for the worst. And by preparing for the worst, when we got to the point where it was really clear you're not going to be doing a lot of that, it was very easy to kind of flip the switch and move into a new mode. We'd already worked out kind of how we would do it. And now it was about our team stepping into a new execution and communication. And so what was so encouraging and also completely nerve wracking because financially, for our small organization, our event that we do once a year is a big deal. And if we had to cancel it or just postpone another year, you know, that would be tough. But more important, our mission every year when we do. Conference is to help Christian leaders know how to faithfully engage our cultural moment. And so I felt a conviction that we didn't have the opportunity or even if we did, if there were zero dollars involved and we just needed to move forward with something, we had to move forward with something because the Christian community needed to come together in this moment and be thinking well about it and better understanding where this could go. And so for that reason, we just made that decision. We're going to move forward and we just invited people into it with us. So the people who are already on board to come to Nashville and now they were going to be able to come, we said, look, we'll do this two ways. If you want to defer your registration next year and just come next year, do that. And guess what? You can also online watch it. Like we just want you to be a part of it this year. So no lose situation there. And on the other side, we said if some of you are actually in this and you're gone. I've always wanted to invite more people to queue, but they couldn't afford to come. Couldn't be a part of the conversation. Then we want to take your ticket and turn it into four tickets. And so if they had paid four hundred dollars, it was like, now you're going to get four ninety nine dollars tickets and now you go and buy your friends from not only in the US but around the world to be a part of this, because there was a sense within our community like we need this, we need something that's going to bring us together. How could we do this production in such a way that really at that time we hadn't seen anybody anchoring an event in a physical location because, of course, everybody was home. But that felt very disconcerting to me. Like as a viewer, I wanted to have a place where I felt like there was a home base. And so we decided even if I was the only one there, we were going to have a home base that for two days allowed people to participate in this. And so, you know, we made a bunch of those decisions and just started executing. We were able to in all, we had 40 different talks take place over these two days. A third of those were in person with us giving a talk. We did all social distancing roles. I did interviews from people sitting many, many awkwardly feet away. But we still created a good setting for those conversations. And then we had the bonus opportunity to invite people from around the world. We at Francis Chan with us from Hong Kong, you know, we had people that could be live with us via Skype. Tim Keller and at his apartment in New York City, you know, able to talk to us about what that experience was like for him going through 9/11 and now going through this and how people were responding. We're able to bring a very live element to this, using technology to have very Real-Time input. And then we had some prerecorded talks that were part of it. And so, all in all, we were able to grow the audience. I mean, we quadrupled the amount of people this year that were exposed to this conversation because we were forced into a new way of thinking about it. And now that's made us rethink how are we going to do this in the future? What is our opportunity now? And can we just go forward and do an in-person event? Or don't we maybe now always need to be providing a way for more and more people to engage. And so we've been encouraged and energized by what we see as a new opportunity within the space that we're.
Rusty Rueff: Yeah, I think you're not alone, right? Everybody who's now crossed the Rubicon, if you will, enter the digital world, found some real interesting possibilities and some real positives out of it are now wondering, what do I hang onto and what do I leave behind? And to actually take a lot of it with me. Right. You know, churches are going through this right now, the intimacy of the conversation. For those who showed up to teach right out into their homes like you're welcome into the home of your pastor are now like, well, how do I keep that intimacy going forward with an online church, if that's what it's gonna be? So I think it's fascinating. And it seems like you guys, you know, not only from the questions that you ask, but even from the having to go through the conference, you know, are on the cutting edge in a couple of different ways for where things may go forward. And, you know, one of the things that you talk about is the idea of censorship and that censorship is a touchy subject. But how do you think about where things are censors, censorship in particular versus the truth? Right. So what's going to happen? I mean, like if somebody goes out and quotes science vs. what is perceived to be, you know, the thing in the culture at the time that might run counter to science, could be the CDC, could be the WHO, could be anybody. As we go through the rest of this pandemic, what censorship at that point?
Gabe Lyons: Well, yeah. I mean, listen, as people who in American life at least value free speech value the ability to assemble together, we have a major problem in front of us because we're now in a place where ideas and speech is being filtered through a lens by some other authority that's deciding what you have the right to hear or not and discern and find out for yourself. And once we've sort of removed ourself from that and we've given that authority to some other group to decide something's misinform or something is not as accurate as this particular policy, we find ourselves in a difficult place. You know, Alister Macintyre wrote this book called Beyond Virtue many years ago, and he describes this concept.
He calls it the managerial bureaucratic expertize. And he frames it as this particular viewpoint that the world was starting to be trained to really put and empower a lot of authority. And I think we're seeing a little bit of that play out in this current season where those have been invested with sort of a bureaucratic managerial expertize. Those are giving the most credence. And those who maybe are using common sense and those who are trying to assimilate this information are shut down. You know, when you're in a point in our country where medical doctors are being de platformed and they're being taken off of YouTube for reporting what they're seeing and what their assessment is, as a scientist, you're in a very dangerous place. This isn't religious ideas. This isn't hateful ideas. It's now moved into your ideas don't fit the narrative that we want to see go forward. So we will remove those ideas. And when you have big tech working in concert with one another, when you've got Facebook, Google, YouTube and Instagram all saying, hey, essentially we're just going to follow one another. You're now at a place, you know, Twitter deleting presidential tweets. Doesn't matter what you think about the president? You're in a new place where if you think the ideas you care about, you should actually be able to go forward. Then you should care about censorship. You have to actually be willing to fight for really bad ideas to go forward in a space where we're going to protect free speech. Because the moment you can't speak your mind and you don't actually get to live by that freedom that you were born with. You are endowed with this right to speak, what you really think, what you've reflected on and you've process. Then you move into a dangerous space. And I don't think we can raise the alarm loud enough, especially for Christians and the Christian community, to understand how significant this is. And we spoke to that a little bit during our summit because, you know, Q. We want to talk about ideas. And as soon as you're told, well, you can only have one side of the debate. Now, you're not actually allowed to have any counterpoint. You know, a lot of anybody disagree with that or you're either shout it down or you're labeled as misinformed or advancing something that's dangerous for society. And these are all the terms being thrown out. Now, when you just are trying to have a conversation. And so I've you know, you're tapping into something that I think's a really big deal. And I want people to be paying attention to.
Rusty Rueff: Well, then I'm going to roll back a little bit back to the question that William asked you and that you were going through about the Christians role in all of that. And I know you've got some things that you don't think Christians should do, right, to change culture or to influence culture. You want to take us through some of those?
Gabe Lyons: Well, I think, yeah, the way to change culture is to just and Andy Crouch originally wrote about this in his book, Culture Making. That's the influence on some of these ideas for sure who I know is a good friend of you guys. You know, he talks about you don't change culture by critiquing it. You also don't change it by being a person that's just going to condemn everything that you see happening around you that you disagree with. You actually change. By creating it, then you make a difference, by creating things, you clarify, you compel people, you celebrate the things that you love. You cultivate new forms of culture that people can get involved in that are these tangible expressions of how we believe Gus designed us as human beings to flourish. And so it's through all of that that you bring change. And many times it takes a lot of time. It takes plenty of other people. But in backing up in this conversation, you've got to have the freedom to talk about ideas. You got to have the freedom to come together with people that you like, the way they think and you want to create things together. And in a free market, you create things and you let the audience decide what they like, what's working, what's not working. You don't have a dictatorship that sits over that deciding what the market should be exposed to. And so I think in this conversation, it's just important to realize we've got to protect that space for the free exchange of ideas. Right. If you can't get together and create you don't have an economy. And if you can't talk freely and truthfully and honestly and you can't push back on just group think, then you're gonna have a hard time creating a culture that's flourishing and full of new life and vibrancy. And of course, there's some danger that comes with that. The guardrails are often that kind of environment. I get the danger part of it, but it's also why it brims with life.
Rusty Rueff: Well, can you also speak into Because one of the reactions would be to retract. Right, and almost be silent, which is not the role either. How do you speak in two pastors or faith leaders or those you know, we're trying to live their faith out in their workplace?How do you give them confidence to still be able to speak into an environment that may feel hostile?
Gabe Lyons: Yeah, well, it's as we said earlier, I'm gonna keep going back to that data point. Nine out of ten of your neighbors and friends and colleagues think if you say anything critical of what they think. And so I don't want to make it sound as if if you just have enough confidence that this works really well. No, the fact is, people don't want to hear your opinion. If your opinion doesn't align with what they think, they'd rather you either keep it to yourself or add in the line. You know, I know this is just for me. You do whatever you want. You can think whatever you want. But I think this you almost have to do that now to even express an opinion. And that's OK. That's maybe good common just conversation and a good way to interact and connect with people. But I think for pastors, I mean, part of the challenge at this stage is when we shrink back from talking about cultural issues, which we've seen in our data. So many pastors and church leaders are not willing to talk about the difficult conversations. That's why we wrote this book, Good Faith. We wanted to deal with a bunch of those different issues that seemed almost be off the table now at church in church life.
But yet, when I talk to my teenagers and when I talk to their friends, they're going. Would somebody please help me know how to think about this? My parents aren't talking me about it. My youth group doesn't talk about my pastor never talks about it. And even in our data, what we found was 80 percent of pastors are afraid to talk about some of these difficult issues. And you can understand this. I mean, some of them just don't have time to read the books. They don't know how to talk about it intelligently. So it's just better to stay away from that. Let the quote unquote experts address it. But secondly, they're concerned they're going to say it wrong or somebody is going to get offended. But then when you actually talk to the parishioners that are going to church, almost the same number, 80 percent are saying we wish our pastor would help us understand how to engage these difficult issues. We don't know who to turn to. It's the thing I'm talking about with my family and my kids and my friends and my neighbors. But I'm not getting equipped for it. So it's like this perfect mess, which I think the enemy loves. Right. He's got everybody confused and not knowing where leadership is coming from. So I just think for church leaders, any Christian leader leading a company, anybody in charge of creating a culture needs to understand. People are looking for leadership. They're looking for somebody willing to tell the truth, willing to take the risk to step into some spaces that are messy, are uncomfortable. I think we should acknowledge with humility that we don't know at all. We don't have it all figured out, but we are willing to enter into the conversation because we know how important it is. If we really believe what we say, we believe that we're trying to bring people into life, not death. And so if we're gonna do that, we're going to have to delve into the difficult stuff.
And you're gonna have to be OK knowing that somebody is going to be offended or that someone's going to walk out and leave your church because you happen to address an issue. I spoke at our church a year ago on some issues where I got into some of these difficult conversations and a few families left the church right. They didn't think we were that kind of a church that would actually talk about some of these issues. And I remember the healthy conversations that we had with the majority of our church that said, thank you so much for digging into this. Like, we want to talk about this. This helps us understand what we ought to think and how we ought to believe. And they were encouraged. It put courage into them. And so I think we just have to be OK. Not trying to coddle everybody, but go deeper for Christians to know how to navigate today.
William Norvell: Now, that's really helpful. It's a framework a couple of us have been working with is, I don't know if it's right or wrong. But some version of, you know, we can have opinions about things, as you mentioned. And you read something, you have a quick. You can have a belief which is a little more data driven, life experience driven. I really believe this to be true. Or lastly, you know, you have a conviction, right? I mean, hey, it's really hard for you to shake me off of this foundation, right? I'm I'm really not going to move on this. And we've talked about, especially in this time, where there's a lot of, you know, not great discourse and public shaming, a lot of things going on, really trying to lean into conversations as entrepreneurs, whether it's with customers, vendors, employees, really trying to level set before you get in what type of conversation you're having. Is this an opinion I have? Is this a belief or is this a conviction? Reminds me of actually in marital counseling. They gave us a one, two, three system, said, you know, sometimes you end up arguing about something that's a one for two hours and turns out both of you didn't really care or vice versa. Sometimes someone really cared and someone really didn't care. And if you just known that upfront, you have moved on. And I would love maybe speak just to our business owners a little bit as they're trying to navigate. Like I said, customers, suppliers, vendors, employees maybe had to think through that framework a little bit. You know what Hill is worth dying on and what's not. And maybe a winsome strategy or two that maybe you've developed to navigate that world.
Gabe Lyons: Yeah. I appreciate that question. I love your framework because I think that's such an important thing for us to understand as leaders is the conversations we're entering into. We need to be really good at assessing specifically. We think about the business community, thinking about the public square, you know, the place in which you're going to be doing business. A place that's got to be and should be welcoming to all people where you're trying to serve your neighbors, you're trying to do good. People are going to believe what you believe. They didn't sign up for the same convictions. They don't have to sign up for what you believe in order to benefit greatly from a way in which maybe you're trying to improve their life. And so I do think it's important for that business owner to assess what are my lines, you know, where am I going to stand, because this is a hill worth dying on and how I'm going to treat my employees, what I'm going to do about my supply chain and how we're going to ensure we're valuing people, how I think about profit and what I'm doing with that. Like there should be real convictions and integrity in how you're going to lead the organization. But I think there's a lot of freedom and good people just disagreeing about some business practices and how they want to do them as long as they have integrity. And so I think what I've learned is like we both have to analyze in conversation with clients, vendors, customers, what is it they're really after here in the relationship?
And the more that I start to invest in this friendship, this relationship is listening. This better understanding the person that God put in front of me for some reason, even if it's everyday working with me or it's once a month customer, God cares about this person more than I do. And I want to be a vehicle in which they experiences love. And so I want to get to know them. I want to know what their needs are. I don't know what they're worried about. You know, in this car culture, questions around anxiety. What are you worried about? It's an important question to better understand about the people you're trying to serve. The more we get those things out, we start talking about it. We can feel lighter. We can feel better. You feel trust with the person who's having those conversations with you? I think for business owners in this moment, with employees being able to create that really good open door where they understand the business, how it works, how like functions, where this tough points are right now in the business model because of the economy changing and how they as an employee can be an owner with, you know, how they can take on that mindset of I'm going to jump in with you. Like, I'm going to row the boat with you even if I see us taking on water. I want to know how to succeed here. I want to help you.
And I find it when business owners do that, they're actually invite all kinds of new energy and creativity, as we were talking about earlier in the what is the future of this going to look like? So I think in closing, A, that for each business owner to determine their convictions. I mean, to me, it scripture like understanding God's ideals for how we both do business, how we treat people, how we serve our neighbors, our cities, our communities. I think it's all there. And convictions can be built off of that. But I'd also be careful not to assume every other person has to share your same convictions in order to work with them, partner with them, hire them. I think there's gonna be a lot of freedom in that so that we're finding a way to bring more people into the conversation versus exclude them from game.
Henry Kaestner: One of the things we'd like to ask all of our guests is something that they're hreaing through God's word. Now, what is he teaching you? Maybe it's in your quiet time this morning, maybe something last week. But what are you hearing from him about through the Bible?
Gabe Lyons: Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, the book that I happened to be in right now is Revelation. And in studying Revelation, which is a difficult book to study, but I'm doing it with a group of men and sat together. And it's been really, really helpful is realizing how much God cares about us enduring and overcoming and how much that theme is there that he's with us. But even in the face of fear or concern or a future that we don't understand, that we can have hope. Because he is trustworthy and he's going before us. And righteousness and good does overcome evil. And we can just fully count on that. And so that's been a great encouragement to me. It's also encouraged me towards repentance. And it says in Revelation 17 that this spirit is basically over. It's like a city that's over the whole world, that all the kings are just kind of operating underneath. Right. And it's this idea that there's a system that competes with the kingdom and that systems about greed. It's about deceit. It's about sensuality. It's about all these different attributes that actually lead us down, these paths of idolatry that lead to our ruin. And so I've just been convicted about ways in which my own life has any of those thing elements woven into them because I bought into an American idealized vision of Christianity or American dream or ideas that aren't true. And so it's just been a good reckoning for me to, like, walk through and try to sift out what are the areas in which come in, especially out of the season where all of our lives have been somewhat upended. We've had to stop and pause long enough to reflect on what's been good about my life and what do I want to change and to really go through that process with my wife and our family and say, what do we want to sift out of our life? What is God trying to sift out as we move into a new season of preparation for what he's trying to do in the world?