Episode 287 - What’s Stopping Entrepreneurs From Partnering with the Church? with Barna Group's David Kinnaman

Entrepreneur: what is your relationship like with your church?

(We really want to know!)

Church leaders and entrepreneurs have the potential to be radical partners who influence and impact communities for the glory of God together.

But often, we find a strange divide between these two groups that interferes with the good work they could be doing together.

That’s why in this week’s podcast episode Justin Forman and Barna Group’s David Kinnaman will be talking about ways the church can become better partners. They’ll also talk about an exciting research project underway between these two organizations.
This is part of a new segment we call the “riff” where we invite listeners into the ideas and conversations we’re having, so please leave your thoughts in the comments or send them to podcast@faithdrivenentrepreneur.org.

All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific advice for any individual or organization.

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Episode Transcript

Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.

Joseph Honescko: How often do you feel complicated when you step into church on a Sunday morning? Many faith driven entrepreneurs love the church. They appreciate the community it brings, and if they have families, they like how it gives them something to unite over and pursue together. But personally, they still feel a little, well, complicated. A lot of us just aren't sure how to find our place within the church. Often our desire is for innovation. Disruption and change. Don't have an outlet within an institution that is rooted in beautifully ancient traditions. Other times, it feels like our abilities to lead and charge ahead can get overlooked or brushed aside. But these challenges don't mean that we should just throw in the towel. Entrepreneurs need the church, and the church can learn a lot from the entrepreneurs in their congregations. These two groups are often separated. But what would happen if both of these powerful forces came together in partnership? That's what we're riffing about in this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Justin Forman and I will be talking with Barna Group's David Kinnaman about the kind of impact that becomes possible when the church and entrepreneurs work together for the glory of God and the good of those around them. We'll also talk about a very exciting research project that faith driven entrepreneur is doing in partnership with the Barna Group. All that coming up on Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Joey Honescko. Let's get into it. Welcome back, everyone to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. My name is Joey Honescko, and I've got Justin Forman with me to riff about the relationship between the church and entrepreneurs alongside our guest, David Kinnaman from The Barna Group. I want to welcome you both on the show, and I'm going to lean into the fact that we have a studio full of Texas transplants with us. So I'm going to say, how y'all doing?

Justin Forman: Well said, Joey, I love it, I love it. Yeah, I certainly didn't think I would be in Texas 20, 30 years ago. But here I found myself a couple kids later and, maybe not Texas forever, but man, it's a good place to live.

David Kinnaman: Yeah, never say never, because I thought Dallas would not be in my future. But here I am in the Fort Worth side and enjoying it. It's a great city built for business, and, it's been a good life transition. Miss California at times and summer for sure. But Texas has been a good place for me.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, the summers are the hardest part. And I will say we won't harp on this, but Fort Worth is an underrated city. Fort worth is such a cool place to be. The Dallas gets the credit. Speaking of two things that sometimes are at odds with each other. You've got Dallas Fort Worth, and today we're going off on a riff on pastors and entrepreneurs, and we've done a few episodes like this before. We're going to wrestle through these ideas together. And if you've got thoughts, listeners, we'd love to hear them. You can send your thoughts to podcast at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org, or you can leave a comment on LinkedIn and add your thoughts to the topic today. But I want to start us by just saying, Justin, maybe you can kick us off here. That tension between the entrepreneur and the church, what's the deal with that? And why should entrepreneurs even care to better their relationship with the church?

Justin Forman: Starting off with the light question. All right. Well, we'll walk into this slowly. You know, it's such a great question. There's so much history here, and we're never going to be able to cover it all in this episode. But being 43 and just growing up in the church and seeing the last 20 years or so since college, or just kind of what you've seen in the space, and I think that, you know, if you did a 23 and me test and kind of like trace the DNA of entrepreneurs and pastors, I think there'd be a whole lot more similarity than we give them credit. Like I think there's just like on mission, purpose driven, trailblazing, always working, always on care so deeply about it that we have just missed. I think a lot of times, I mean, you could look at any sort of relationship counseling, marriage counseling, go through anything. And I think the first step of some things is just like we haven't paused long enough to see each other. We haven't paused long enough to see each other and to see where each other's coming from, to understand them. And many of our listeners may have seen this clip that we did called Dear Entrepreneur, that Joey that we were all part of putting that together and crafting that together. But seeing several different voices of pastors kind of speaking into it was like they were speaking into kind of like a wound, a dad wound, if you will, or something that some of us were carrying and saying, hey, there's been some overlook. But the key is and I think that as we step into this as entrepreneurs, we have to understand it's a two way street. I think there's a two way street and disconnect. And we have to sometimes start by owning kind of what's in our circle. But it's law as you said, it's been there for a while. This isn't something that is recent events. I think entrepreneurs over the last 20 years, we get so passionate about something, we get fired up and like, go do it. And then we all try and share that same vision with the pastor. And if they don't get it, we just move on and we go doing it again. And I think sometimes, like if we want to go further, we've got to have that moment where we stop, see those roles that we each play and recognize, you know, this side of heaven. I don't think there is a greater opportunity or partnership for this movement. If these two things can come together. Yes, we can do these one offs and these things, but there is a spiritual battle probably being waged to keep us apart. And man, if we could, It would be something we have not ever seen.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, I think that's such a key point too, is that it's this vision for what could be right. Because you have these two powerful forces. You have these two influential institutions, really entrepreneurship business pastors in the church. And so we have these two sides. And, David, I'm going to turn to you here because Barna has been doing a lot of good work about the state of the church for years. And one major focus that it seems like has been a greater emphasis lately has been this idea of resilient pastors, because leading churches in our modern age is tough, right? So how might partnering with entrepreneurs help churches adapt to some of these challenges? You know, these waves of de-churching and deconstruction and all these other things that they're facing. How can entrepreneurs step in and be of service to the pastors in the church?

David Kinnaman: Well, I think Justin said it really well that there is great potential in the partnership between pastors and entrepreneurs, and our aim is to unlock some of that and to make it more plain through social research. And we're, you know, working on some new studies with faith driven entrepreneurs to do just that. But I would actually track it back to the very qualities and characteristics of people who get into entrepreneurial leadership. There's some areas of similarity, and there are also some areas of difference to those who get into pastoral leadership. I often think about that, you know, certain industries. Certain kinds of jobs. It's just natural. There's certain strength, certain sorts of capabilities that draw a person into that industry. And you know, with entrepreneur activity, it's risk taking. It is the capacity to have a vision of a preferable future to mobilize, motivate, resource and direct people towards that. That people part is something that is similar between entrepreneurs and pastors. But it's really clear from the research that we've done and we've done as a company, tens of thousands of interviews with pastors through the years. Pastors are really good at communicating. Seven out of ten pastors say their favorite thing to do is to preach and teach. So some pastors are entrepreneurs, but not all pastors are entrepreneurs. Even though the position actually gives them a title or role of leadership, I think that's sometimes where pastors and entrepreneurs can miss each other. Is there is a visionary, if you will, through the language of literature, more apostolic vision in terms of entrepreneurs have a capacity to sort of see and think about systems and structures and institutions. Again, I think that's true of some pastors, but not all pastors. So we have these kind of two sets of gifts and giftedness, one around communicating, mobilizing people, helping to train people in the way and knowledge of Jesus, discipling people, evangelizing, creating people structures. But entrepreneurs are great at, you know, financial structures and real estate ventures and, you know, market opportunities. And I think that's why entrepreneurs can get so frustrated with pastors is they don't often sort of speak the same language, even if they're using the same word. And so, you know, I think this is a great opportunity as the world is changing, as the church is undergoing a lot of pressure, as we're looking at how to really engage younger generations in a gospel that is compelling. I think pastors and entrepreneurs not only need to be great partners, but I think ultimately will want to be great partners, because I think there's really great potential for how the fruit of their partnership actually produces long lasting, you know, sort of impact in people's lives. And that's ultimately what all of us are about.

Justin Forman: Do me a favor, David. Most of our listeners are entrepreneurs. They might not appreciate the rich history and data that you guys have about what pastors are going through. Set the stage for us for a moment. We're all thinking about that local pastor, the church that we're a part of. But give us a broad sense, whether it's the burnout, the weight that they're carrying, the loneliness. What are some of the things that pastors themselves are going through? And then some of the other surveying that you guys have done?

David Kinnaman: Yeah, thanks for asking. So, you know, Barna Group has been in business for 40 years. And that's all just background to this opportunity that George Barna, the founder of the company, saw to help navigate and talk about social trends, religious trends, faith trends, Christian trends from a distinctively Christian point of view. So, you know, there's Gallup and Pew and many other sources of data about our society, but very few that kind of approach that from a distinctively Orthodox Christian point of view. Even the nature of the questions can be unique at Barna, because we're trying to look at things from a theologically rich orientation. So we apply that grid to our social resource or market researchers or social researchers. We've had the chance of interviewing millions of people adults, teenagers, pastors, entrepreneurs around the world, mostly in the United States, in North America. But we've done stuff around the world. So it's a great privilege to do the work that we do. And as for the role of pastors, I think that's something that's particularly unique to our company is we've really been a voice to amplify the concerns and hopes and dreams of pastors, because we've gotten a chance to interview tens of thousands of them and talk about what they're going through. And the last 3 to 5 years have been an absolute pressure cooker for spiritual frontline workers, pastors and church leaders, the kind of the betrayal they feel when people walk away from the church after being close friends and they just all of a sudden stop attending, and they never say what's happening, even if they have the dignity of saying so. We see a lot of that kind of breach of trust that pastors endure, you know, marrying people, burying family members, you know, going through crises with families, and then they just poof, they're gone. And so that the pandemic, the general political nature of our society and the ways the church has become so fragmented is very difficult for pastors, social media, and, you know, cable news and the pressure of passing on the faith that younger generations, which is much less likely to embrace Christian values and Christian identity. It's a really tough time to be in a lot of leadership positions, but it's an especially hard time to be a pastor. And this role of a pastor is so critical. It is undergoing a lot of change. It is at the center of an institution that's under a lot of pressure culturally, politically, socially, generationally, financially. But recognizing the pressures that we are feeling, entrepreneurs and pastors alike is another place where I think we have a natural inclination to be working together.

Justin Forman: I want to come back to some of the things you're talking about, just societally in terms of the changes that we're going through, compounding with what pastors have gone through. But, you know, so we've got young kids, and I may have mentioned this before on a podcast or something before, but a movie that's resonated deeply with us is the movie Cars and Disney Classic. We're all familiar with it Radiator Springs, this highway, classic place where everybody goes west, you drive down it, and it's the place where you go. It's just a place you stop on your journey. And in many ways, then there's this new highway, this new highway that's built. It's smoother, it's wider, paved, it's whatever. It's got all the bells and whistles, the stops next to it that takes off. And that's the tension of the movie cars that we see played out in Disney. It feels like we're in that moment as a church where that there is this like this highway that we all used to go down. But today there's so many competing options. Whether you can find community with a sports team, a community with your alma mater, community with your kids, sports teams, all these other things that are competing, maybe more convenient, a click away on our phone. It's led to this place where things are changing and things are just changing in the place of like where people are naturally turning. What are you guys seeing in that? Put the numbers to it. How much are people turning to different outlets?

David Kinnaman: Yeah, I think it's a beautiful analogy and it's a good one. I might steal it from a Justin or maybe from cars, but there's so much change that's happening. And one of the ways that I think we could really locate that change is a concept we describe as Digital Babylon. And, you know, another kind of example of Radiator Springs before Radiator Springs with Babylon. And so Jerusalem would have been Radiator Springs, and Babylon was the big city that everyone took, you know, the superhighway to get to. And that idea of Babylon has been a very shaping theme for me, and trying to understand the journey of younger Christians and indeed of the church today and Babylon, all throughout Scripture is sort of the city of man all the way through to revelation and the notion that's like the idea of humanity, can certainly, rule and reign at the place of God. And so one of my favorite people in Scripture is Daniel, who was taken from Jerusalem to Babylon to serve faithfully in that context. And he becomes a political advisor to three different regimes. He is faithful in his calling. We see his prayer life. We see his commitment to holiness throughout his life. But he's also, you know, a political leader. And it's a really interesting story of someone who's able to face some of those challenges going from Radiator Springs into the big lights of the big city. And, I think recognizing the pressures that this generation is facing, the research points a really clear line to that. People are being discipled by the algorithms. They're being shaped and formed by the significant volume of information that comes in through screens. We could call it the gospel according to YouTube. We could say that people are, you know, sort of their best friend is their smartphone. And so human nature is such that people had challenges to be growing in the way of Jesus, way back in the early days of the church. And that's never changed through centuries. But the particular landscape of digital technology and digital Babylon means we're all exiles. We're all pulled away from Radiator Springs, where life was simple and clean and easy, and we all kind of knew each other. And there was a, you know, kind of a way of being in that simple life. And we can romanticize it for sure. You know, I mean, I think that's another theme of the cars movie, is that the old life isn't necessarily the only life or the best life, but another. I think the similarity between pastors and entrepreneurs is that the gospel should make us some of the most agile leaders and the most comfortable with change, because it turns out we serve a God who's always on the move. And while he doesn't change, Jesus doesn't change and his message doesn't change. And our need for a savior doesn't change. We're in a constant state of flux. That's just the nature of being human. And so I actually think one thing that excites me about our partnership with faith driven entrepreneur is really giving language to being great, agile, change oriented leaders. In an era of disruption, out of the chaos comes a new way forward. And so that's what we can see from Daniel. He actually, you know, would have been taken away from all the things that he knew well and would have been comfortable with to a completely different space and a completely different reality. And yet he learn to be faithful and and I think that's the invitation that we all take from here.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah. I think a big thing that you said there is that God is on the move and he is actively doing things. I think a pessimistic view would say, we're in Babylon and there's no hope. People have lost a search for meaning. But Justin, you've seen a lot of research just about the way that people are looking. It's not that they've stopped looking for meaning, they've just maybe stopped looking for meaning within the church or in these traditional radiator spring like places. So talk to me a little bit about the research about, you know, the trust in institutions and where are people finding meaning and how do businesses and entrepreneurs play a role in that?

Justin Forman: Yeah, I think that's such a great challenge, and I think that's a great context heading into this conversation. We have to see this with the optimism going into it. You know, I mean, earlier when David were just talking about everything what pastors are going through, it's so easy to feel the weight of and just feel the sympathy of what somebody must be going through and leading into that. So I think it was that Gallup poll that we're looking at not too long ago that was talking about trust in institutions, and the typical year of the people would turn to in these times would be your celebrity cause your politician. But I think the trust factor. What was it, Joey? What that was like in the single digits, like 9%, 6%, depending upon what part of the U.S. government I think was, you know, he held up their trust in the church, jumped, and it was like, what, in the high 20s, 30% or somewhere around there?

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, 2023, it was 6% of people trusted Congress, 32% trusted the church. And then the one that I think you're looking for here is 65% trusted small businesses.

Justin Forman: Yeah. And when you see that, I think it's easy to say, man, we've lost ground as a church. Oh, man. We're down in the 30s. But yet how do we see the silver lining to that is, is no in fact, God is. You know, I loved what David talked about Daniel for such a time here. He has placed these unique people into these roles, into these places. And there is a high trust factor into it. So how do we see that is kind of the silver lining of. Like people aren't any less broken. There aren't any less hurt there. Not any less. Searching for meaning and purpose. It's just that they're showing up in different places to look for that. And so even the work that you guys are doing, and there's so much of what you're doing that I can probably see, it can feel like, man, it's weighty. It's overwhelming the data that you guys deliver. How do you guys balance delivering the candor of some of the data, but showing the silver lining and the optimism just as a whole, that when you see something like that.

David Kinnaman: Well, it's a personal journey, I think, as much as anything, and I tend not to be an especially cynical person, although I hope I am a very realistic person about the pressures that we face as a church and as Christians in our society and in our time. Like I've written quite a few books and resources around, just like the challenges of passing on the faith, a book called You Lost Me and a book called unChristian. So, you know, for me, it's been a personal journey with the Lord as a researcher because it is easy to get overwhelmed by the data. And I think there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic or to lose hope. But we ultimately put our hope in Jesus. That's the foundation of that. And then recognizing that if God calls us to be an agent of change, a kind of prophetic voice as researchers, it's really the results are up to God. We just have to be faithful with the things that we report and that we say and that we conclude based on the social research. And so for me, it's been, you know, being an active member of some incredible churches. But back when I was in California and here in Fort Worth, now in Texas, regular time with the Lord, just really letting God's Word change the way I see the world. Which attracts back to what I said earlier. We even approach the research with a different set of perspectives about human nature and about leadership and what is required of us. So approaching all of this and then praying through the results of, like, okay, we get a study back or we get some data back, I'm like, you know, praying together. Okay, Lord, where do you want us to find key threads of analytical insights that are, you know, what you want to say to your people? Without a vision, people perish. And so we want to know what God has to say as we're trying to tell the stories faithfully from the data. But I think it's easy to get cynical. And I've seen other leaders, especially as they reach certain ages and they've been, you know, pounding their head against a brick wall trying to change the church. And I think that may be true of some of your listeners today, might feel like they're as entrepreneurs, they're feeling pretty frustrated with the church or with a relationship within the church or even the pastor that they've been working with. I just want to say, like, hey, encourage the leaders around you. People are very often doing the very best that they can. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. We need to recognize that people have limitations. That's why we need Jesus. And then to be hopeful about, you know, what God is up to. I, God is building a new and faithful church, new wineskins. In this moment, I think a new wineskin represents the kind of partnership that could be possible between pastors and entrepreneurs and other sectors of society. I think this is one of the most compelling arguments for the power of the gospel, is it actually changes us into different kinds of people because we are connected to a deeper source. And it tells us things like Ecclesiastes, which is like, hey, entrepreneurs, all this metrics of success is just chasing the wind. And there was a period in my life as an entrepreneur where I was just about ready to tap out of a season where I just, I wonder, what am I doing with all this? And the fact that Ecclesiastes was so realistic to give voice to my exhaustion actually was like, oh, the Lord knows the Lord sees it. Turns out I've been trying to do this through my own power. And so we come to the church for a new and better story, a deeper story. And I think we as entrepreneurs and as pastors and as leaders for this now and future church, can do well to understand how to best tell the story of entrepreneurial ism and what God creates entrepreneurs to go do to create abundance in the world, to generate jobs, to give people vision and purpose, to build systems. All those things become very powerful, compelling parts of what an entrepreneur is meant to do.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, yeah, I'm hearing you say that, and I love the optimism. I'm going to play the card of the cynic. And when I think about that, right. You're talking about this beautiful idea of rewriting narratives, rearranging stories. And that's a painful process, right? Like it changing from one narrative to another. It is a beautiful process. Hear me when I say that I'm not against it. But that transformation, that metamorphosis that we go through is a challenge at times, and it causes us to look at ourselves. And so Justin I pass it to you here to just about the entrepreneur who's sitting, listening and is like, yeah, I want to be changed by the church. I do love the church. I still show up on Sundays, but I just don't know how, like, how do we work through those roadblocks and through some of that cynicism to make sure that we're actually getting the reward that David's talking about?

Justin Forman: Yeah. Great questions. I think there is a posture of listening, a posture of showing up that we need to start with. There's a long season of just understanding, like what David was talking about the pastor is going through today. And just think of like how many different stakeholders, how many different things battling culture, battling things in all different fronts. We can't sit there and wait for somebody to show up. It's so antithetical to our nature as an entrepreneur, right? Like as entrepreneurs, we are initiators. We go out and we start and we do things. I think that somewhere maybe we're expecting. Something a little bit different. When we come into the walls of the church, we're expecting a program to be designed and delivered to our needs, something designed and delivered to how we feel community to being built around our entrepreneurs. And yet. That is so different from us. Our nature is that we go out there and we build and we start. And so I think the question that we have to start saying is like, what's in our circle, what's in our things that we can control, what are the things that we can own? And, and I think it's one of the things that we've wrestled with here is, is like. How do you make the complex accessible? How do you make something like this so that an entrepreneurs can like -I don't know - like demystify it? I think sometimes we've used the word community so much in the church that it feels more like a scientific formula than a relationship. It feels more like something that we will never understand versus just take a first step. And so I think that there is an element that we have to own responsibility. When I think about what the pastor and everybody's going through or what can we do to start. And so my hope would be as a movement that we can create tools, resources, conversations, steps. That just make this more accessible? Because I think that it's just so strange when you think about it. We're not used to being spoon fed in so many areas of our life as entrepreneurs. This is one that it is. Should it be that way, or should we be starting with where we are and think how it can be different? So I think we got to start looking inward more than anything. When I think about what a pastor is going through today.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, that's really good. And I think, like you said, it really leans into the entrepreneur's gifts. Like entrepreneurs are not ones to wait around. But for some reason, when we step into the church, there is this feeling of it being like, why is there nothing for me? And maybe we step out of our own kind of call to create and call to step in. So as we think about that, I'd love to hear just both of you. We're working on this project, this research project about entrepreneurs in the church and this relationship. I'd love to hear maybe hopes about this. I know we have some stories, Justin, of different pastors and entrepreneurs working together, and maybe we can hit on some of those. But let's say a year down the road, two years down the road. Ideal situation. What does the most hopeful relationship between pastors and entrepreneurs, business leaders? The church? What does that actually look like practically? Yeah.

Justin Forman: You know, I think that we use this line a lot. We're not prescriptive and not presumptuous. And if there was ever a place for that to be the case, this is it. I think churches of all sizes and all different ethnicities and locations and regions and everything, it's going to look varied. There's some great stories that you're alluding to that we're in the midst of capturing, where sometimes it's staff in a business owner working to create jobs in difficult communities and creating an opportunity out of poverty that's unique, that's awesome. That might not happen. Every church and some places it might be mutually affirming encouragement that then leads to just a place of being seen, feel felt and heard and just unleashing a creativity. So I think we have to be careful that, like, we're not prescribing and nobody's prescribing a one size fits all side of things. But I guess my hope would be is and I recognize the tension of what David must walk in. It's like you're delivering hard truths and data, and yet you're wanting to show the optimism. And my hope is, is that people would see the optimism of the moment and not the mist, not the past. I mean, it's easy to regret that business decision, financial trade, whatever it might have been in the past. But we're here. We're here where we are today, and what is it that we can do about it? And I think part of that that I'm struck by is I hope that there's a death of ego entrepreneurs and pastors, we have a lot in common. That's probably one of the things, I think, that we're attacked a lot. We have the independent spirit, but the other side of that can be a pride. That can be an ego. It can be this thing that we're designed or independent. We can do it on our own. But I think if we come to this place where we let go of ego, will we let our homes down? That's where I think the fun thing happens. When I've seen beautiful partnerships with pastors and entrepreneurs in their church. I think one of the things, and it'll be interesting to see if the data shows some of this as this research starts to happen, is I think there's a death of ego component there where it says like, no matter what it is, this is all sand castles. We're playing for a kingdom above. And when that happens, it's exciting to see what that unlocks. And I think it unlocks. Honestly, so much creativity. We can't even begin to dream what could happen.

David Kinnaman: I think that's so great, Justin. And I think I'd add that the journey will be part of our destination in this, and that we're setting out to do research with entrepreneurs themselves, how they're experiencing entrepreneurship and spiritual formation, and then pastors and then also general population. So we'll be interviewing adults about what are some of their expectations and thoughts about the role of entrepreneurship in our society. What are the redeeming ways in which entrepreneurship can be used? So, you know, we're at the front end as we record this at the front end of a really fun journey of inquiry and discovery. We do our best to have some hypotheses, but then to let the data and the inquiry tell us where we're going and how we're going to get there. And I think that will be a lot of fun to see. Okay. What are the natural connection points? What are the friction areas? What are the spaces where there are some best practices and models of what this could look like? And, you know, there's some really good things that are happening already in churches around the country. There's also some real friction, and there's a natural reason why pastors don't really understand some of the business realities that entrepreneurs are going through. Many pastors don't. And I think pastors also have the right perception that sometimes entrepreneurs come in with the like, well, I could run this better if you just run a more like a business or if you just did it this way. And that doesn't mean we can't have bold decisions, but just recognize that certain institutions are built for certain functions and certain ways of being. And, a church is built differently than an entrepreneurial environment. It's meant to be that. It's meant to some of Justin's comments earlier, we have to sort of take all of our identities, whatever that will be. And as entrepreneurs, first and foremost, we have to put that at the door and move into the body of Christ, not forgetting who we are, but sort of laying all that at the cross and at the feet of Jesus. So I have a lot of hope that this research project will give us insights as to how language in the words and the teaching and the environments and the cohorts and the greater possibility of partnership might look. And I get pretty excited about this journey and what we can learn together.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, absolutely. We're excited about this research and to see where it's all going to lead. We're going to be announcing some exciting things coming up where David will be partnering with us, maybe some conference material and maybe a little bit more leaning into the entrepreneur in church. Little hint, hint, wink wink. There'll be more coming there. But yeah, excited about the research. And the other thing I would just challenge our listeners to is as helpful as this research will be. We also don't have to wait for it to take action. A lot of us feel this friction and like you guys are both saying, it takes that first step often from the entrepreneur to make that first move. So we've mentioned some stories that we've already heard around the world. I'll be putting those in the show notes so you can click links there to read more about what it looks like for churches and entrepreneurs to work together. And the reality is that there's a lot more of these left to be written. And so that's our hope, is that we're going to continue to see these stories flourish of churches and entrepreneurs coming together. So, David, Justin, thank you guys both so much. Really excited for the research and to see where that leads. And just excited for churches and entrepreneurs working together. Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn't have to be. We've got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There's no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.

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