Chris Hodges is the founding and senior pastor of Church of the Highlands, and his latest book Out of the Cave shares how a difficult season of his life and a study of the life of Elijah can show us what it looks like to step into the light when depression darkens what you see. We hope this episode encourages you on your entrepreneurial journey, but if you or someone you know needs help, don’t hesitate to call a friend, a pastor, or any crisis hotline. Listen in and remember that you are not alone...

Episode Transcript

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Chris Hodges: I guess this is just my lot in life. This is what my life is going to look like. I think the greatest joy of writing this book is to let people know that there's hope and there is a way out and that God has meaning for your life. The genius of Victor Frankl when he wrote man's search for meaning this this Jewish psychiatrist who had a clinic to help the survivors of the Holocaust who watched their loved ones die not a single patient committed suicide on his watch because he helped them see the fact that all of us can have some meaningful work can do it with a community of friends, and then we can take the pain that we've experienced in the suffering and help others by which we've experienced.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. I am here with my co-host Rusty Rueff, wearing his Purdue hat. And then I think you've got your Alabama colors on William. I usually do.

William Norvell: You usually do usually, you know, different shades of red, but they all harken back to the same image.

Henry Kaestner: So today we've got a special guest on. And we're just talking about Alabama or talking about football, I guess wrongly at the helmet that is over top of his desk. We're doing this by video Zoom interview as we do most of our podcasts. And so I know that you, as the listener, likely can't see anything. But it was fun to talk with Chris a little bit before we went on board about the fact that that is not a Washington football helmet behind him, but it is a Woodlawn, right? Chris, your boys go to Woodlawn

Chris Hodges: Woodlawn High School from the movie Woodlawn. And so, yeah, that's right, probably 15 minutes from where I am right now.

Henry Kaestner: So we're also talking about what you think of as or what people in Alabama think of is the definition of an atheist, which I thought was interesting talking about Alabama football. What is the definition of an atheist

Chris Hodges: and atheist in Alabama as somebody who does not believe in Paul Bear Bryant?

Henry Kaestner: So there you go. Awesome. I can see William smiled from ear to ear. OK, Chris, we like to start every one of our episodes with understanding a bit about somebody's background, who you are, where you come from, what drives you. So give us a little bit of an autobiographical flyover up until maybe five or 10 years ago. And then, of course, we going to be talking about out of the cave and home two things we want to do within our half hour together. But start us off by saying who you are and where you come from.

Chris Hodges: Well, I was born and raised in South Louisiana and Baton Rouge, and so I'm a Cajun, which I always tell people. What that means is you might not learn anything, but we are going to have a good time. So you can't have fun with the person from Louisiana. It's your fault. So anyway, yeah, I was born and raised there. I was an accounting major at LSU. I thought that's what I was going to do kind of following in my father's footsteps, who was one of those brilliant financial minds I've ever met and an auditor by trade. And in the middle of my junior year, I had an encounter with God and called to the ministry, transitioned over to a Bible college. Locally there started full time ministry at 20 years old while I was a full time student. I'll be fifty eight this year, so I've been doing this 38 years now. Kind of wanted to be the best number two guy in the world, so I never dreamed about doing anything on my own. And in 1999 went through a year of a hidden depression, tucked it away, smiled on the outside, but just was incredibly miserable. And we were in a 21 day fast to start the year 2000, when on the 17th day that fast, I got an open vision. I actually saw what I was going to do. One day I saw an auditorium. I saw myself speaking in an auditorium that was seat about 2400 people and didn't know what City was in, but took our vacation time. My wife and five kids and I took our vacation time in May of 2000 to just go look into cities that we thought we could go plant a church in or go start a ministry in. And long story short, we fell in love with Birmingham, Alabama, for a lot of different reasons. And so in the February of the following year of 2001, we launched a church, didn't know a single person in town, didn't know how to plan a church, didn't have any money to plant the church. Other than that, we was ready to go. And so we we started the church and had about 400 people show up in the very first service. Two hundred came back the next Sunday, and here we are today, 20 years later, with one of the largest churches in the nation and nobody more amazed than me.

Henry Kaestner: So wow, OK. So all that's happened in 20 years, and we're going to get to what it's look like for how you all planted churches at scale and just what you're doing with the education. A whole bunch of different things. But what was it like in the early days you get this LSU tiger walks into a place of Alabama football and and you know, I know enough about Birmingham and its history to know that the gospel had been there before you guys got there. So a bunch of people who are thinking, you know, we've already got a church, we've already we already know about Christ, and here's a guy from LSU that's coming in and wants to pastor to us. I wouldn't say that that's necessarily hostile environment, but but maybe it is pretty close. Well, what was it like early in the early days?

Chris Hodges: Well, first thing what it was like, there was nothing and no one to help you plan a church. So there was no books, there were no conferences, there was no money, there was no training. There was what we call here in the south that y'all go ahead ministry. I mean, they would just they pray for you at a service and say, you know, good luck to you. And the model back then was actually to start in a home, start small. And thank God, I had enough business training to know that that's not how you start any kind of business that you needed some kind of critical mass to get past. You know what it would take to make it successful that, you know, more than 90 percent of business failures happen because they were undercapitalized on the front end. So it could have been a great idea that just never got enough of a push. So I thought that must be true with churches as well. So we we actually bought into. An idea that is what launched a church planning movement, and that is, let's start on bigger, let's wait to slow it down and make sure we have the people and the resources and the training and the know-how and have larger launches. And that's what we do to this day. But it was very, very different. Make no mistake about it, even though it was church in an area where people had opportunity to go to church, there's actually a lot of people that were still far from God. Because here down in the south, you know, going to a church is like belonging to a country club so you can attend. But really nothing happened in your heart. And of course, that's not everyone. But there was a lot of people. So there's been scores of people who've given their life to Jesus here in Alabama. And in fact, I think the kind of stepped into a vacuum, honestly, a people who wanted to experience God and enjoy serving God and and be encouraged to go make a difference in our world.

Henry Kaestner: So you talk about the business aspect and of course, there's church planning and and I've reflected on this for a long time that a church planner is really an entrepreneur. Absolutely. And so to dove into that a little bit in terms of the parallels, and maybe there's some differences too. But where do the similarities and differences between an entrepreneurial church planning pastor and a business person? You mentioned one of them, but you know, just what's the right pace of scale? What's the right size you need? But just riff on that a little bit.

Chris Hodges: Yes. So we actually did some research and found out that of the 90 percent of churches that were failing, they never got to a critical mass number of people. That makes the church experience different in a good way. So everybody knows that if you're singing. Singing is better in a room of 500 than it is five. So the question is then where is that number? What is the number where it actually gets better? And we found out it was somewhere around 130 to 150 people, whether it's naturally about 50 percent attrition to whatever you launch. So if you need a net 150 people, then you need to build your plan around attracting at least 300 people on launch day so that if you had that full attrition, you still have enough to have a critical mass where you're preaching and you're singing. And the experience that we have collectively when we come to church is something that people can actually enjoy, and that's what we bought into. So we actually built an entire marketing plan around getting, you know, I actually bumped it up. I thought if it was 300, let's just be really safe and make it 400 people and so actually built an entire marketing plan and everything that we were going to do based on attracting that number of people on day one. And honestly, it worked exactly like the studies had shown. And those are the similarities. And honestly, I don't know that there are any differences.

Henry Kaestner: Mm-Hmm. So isn't there another way to do that? Can't you just go out and recruit a couple of really good singers so that you start off with five and you got to? I'm kidding. One thing that entrepreneurs and pastors share, particularly church planning pastors, is a sense of loneliness and isolation. Oh yeah, it's a hard thing. You're selling something to somebody. You're trying to presumably recruit somebody to join your church. I know this is the case, of course. In business, you're trying to bring on board customers. You're trying to bring on board employees. Sometimes you're trying to sell an employee to stay and then you get home from work or you get home from being a pastor and your wife or your husband asks you how things are going and you want to tell them things are going great because they don't think you should have left that job that you had in education or in the ministry or at Cisco or IBM. So you're always selling something to somebody that can be really isolating. Talk to us about that a bit, as you see in there, because just to give our audience a sense of scale, I think that the Church of the Highlands has been involved in something like nine hundred and fifty church plants. Is that right?

Chris Hodges: That's exactly right.

Henry Kaestner: Unbelievable. OK. So huge scale. So you're seeing these types of patterns. Talk to us a bit about isolation and loneliness.

Chris Hodges: Yeah. And not only isolation, loneliness, but most leaders after they've you know, let me just say it this way, been on stage all day. They actually experience these adrenaline highs in these emotional highs. So that when you do get home, not only are you lonely and isolated, but also your spent, and most people make their worst decisions when they're spent. And in fact, most of our spiritual attacks happen when we're spent. I actually spent seven years in Colorado Springs in my earlier years as a youth pastor, did a lot of snow skiing, and I'll never forget one conversation I had with a person who worked at the infirmary there at the ski slopes, who said that 90 percent of all the accidents happen in the last hour of the day. And there are two things that happened in the last hour of the day. And that is, you're tired and you're overconfident. And that is true of every leader. So do you do now you end up home or you end up at the end of a week and you still are expected, perhaps by your family or others, to continue to be on stage and perform. But you're tired and you're spent. And then you add to that. Fuller Theological Seminary said that over 90 percent of all pastors say they're lonely. In fact, he said that they could figure out some way to earn a living other than. Ministry, more than 50 percent of them would leave the ministry and do it, so it really is difficult for a lot of people who are in that type of leadership.

William Norvell: Chris, we were talking preshow. Most of our listeners know I grew up in Alabama and went to Alabama, and the Church of the Highlands has been such a beacon of light in Birmingham. And I know so many people that have been blessed by your ministries are just so grateful that you followed the vision. You know, we can talk about your book in a second, but but you had that vision and you know, not everybody follows it sometimes, right? Like, you still had to take the active step to chase down what God showed you. And so grateful for that and grateful for you. And thank you. You know, we are going to move into the book out of the cave in just a second, and that's a book you know about dealing with depression and something that we've talked about before on a podcast with Max Anderson. But it's been a while. Tell us a little bit. Why did you feel led to take the time to write, to take the time to wrestle with this issue and come up with a book on this topic?

Chris Hodges: Actually, it happened because in 2018 there were three pastors who committed suicide and I didn't know any of them, but it impacted me like I knew them. And I remember being so grieved I thought, This is just not good. And honestly, I was very ignorant on the topic and honestly at that time in ministry, 35 years and then never done a message around the topic of depression. In fact, most churches shy away from it society even somewhat because there's such a stigma around mental illness. And I thought, Man, I just need to. I need to figure out what this is all about, because if that's true of those pastors, it's certainly true of people who did some research. Of course, it's epidemic. Many considered to be the number one health crisis in the world is depression and anxiety. One out of nine people right now are on some type of antidepressants. So your know your early setting that many people all the time. So I did this study and did this message. Well, guess what? It became the most rewatched message times 100. And I thought, OK, well, then this doesn't need just one message. So I we actually went on a two year journey to do research both secular and spiritually just to figure out everything I could know, knowing that it wouldn't be all the answers, you know, wouldn't be everything that needs to be said. But the church needed to have a voice in this discussion, and there are some very good things that God has to say about that condition. And there is to everyone who's listening, there's some incredible hope. If you're feeling depressed in any kind of a way,

William Norvell: thank you for that. And you know, it's funny. I actually gave a talk recently about the word depression and defining it right? And so I kind of wouldn't define what I went through. Is that particularly but a deep place of darkness that those types of messages hit me and I needed and where my lights and I'd love to invite you to that, you know, how do you define that? What do you think misconceptions are about people that struggle with this and just kind of give you the microphone there?

Chris Hodges: I think everyone would say at some point they've struggled with it and everyone would tell a different story. But for everyone, the metaphor that we've used in the book is a cave because, you know, there's a way out. You just don't know where it is. And it becomes very, very dark. So there's a disorientation in, you know it because like, if someone else came to you and said, Hey, I'm going through this, you can see the way out. And you can even advise them. But when you're in the middle of it, you can advise yourself, you're so disoriented, it's so dark again. You know, there's a way out, you just not sure what it is. And in fact, your mind even begins to make up things like, there's bats in here and there's got to be about really close. And when there's not even begin to create a narrative, that's not even true, it's almost true in every case of depression. A story gets added embellished changed, amplified in a way that makes it incredibly worse. Psychologists call it ruminating where you take your distress and you chew on it so long and swallow it and regurgitate it, and it gets worse and worse and worse the more you do. So I think the gamut of depression is pretty wide, and I think everyone's experienced it in some way or another.

William Norvell: And a bit of your book focuses on the character Elijah. Could you tell us a little bit about him and what God revealed about his life and what God took him through?

Chris Hodges: Yeah. So in Chapter 18, the first kings, you know, he experiences two of the greatest spiritual highs. There's the best preaching material in the Bible, you know, and you'll hear a lot of sermons around it. Six verses later, in Chapter 19, he wants to die, and it came from just one threat. So today's equivalency of that would be one comment on a social media page. One. I don't like you. The point is he experienced this highest of highs and then found himself depleted. In fact, there were at least six different things that he did that psychologists and psychiatrists would say contribute to depression. He did at least six of the what most considered nine causes of depression. He did at least six of them that put him in a cave. And that's just true for a lot of us, right? So. So what I did is I actually wrote the book outlining not only the six. He got in the case of depression, but the five ways that he got out.

William Norvell: Oh, that's great, and, you know, another character that I've gone to when I've been to this time, someone 42, you know, David has this beautiful echoes and you know, he spent a lot of time in a cave and I'll just kind of read someone for you to listen to my cry for I'm in desperate need. Rescue me from those who pursue me for they are too strong for me. Set me free from my prison that I may praise your name and just see that cave. I just see him sitting somewhere. And you know, one of the things that I've struggled with when, when I've gone through these times is people do try to show me the light really fast and try to almost tell me, I don't understand, don't you know, the savior some version of that, right? Yeah. How have Christians maybe mistakenly viewed this or mistakenly treated symptoms of depression?

Chris Hodges: Yeah, because we're people of faith. And so for many, they've been told that faith means you never have any issues, and if you do, something's wrong with you. And so I wrote an entire chapter around removing the stigma and making sure that we posture ourselves in a place where, you know, we're not saying the wrong things. In fact, in the book, I get the 10 things you should never say to someone who's depressed in the 10 things you can say that will actually help them. And honestly, I would like to give people the benefit of the doubt that they really didn't know any better. They thought they were helping, but it doesn't help. And so there is a better approach, and I do it honestly by being vulnerable myself. So what I did and is it's a big risk, or at least it feels like a big risk is I get very vulnerable about some of my darkest moments, even one that I faced in 2020 that was really one of the lowest two or three weeks of my entire life didn't think I would recover from it. And no one would ever even know anything about it. But I decided to write about it in the hopes that people would say, Well, if this man can open up and be honest and all the things that he's done with his life, you know that he could still have moments like this. Then maybe there's hope for me to

William Norvell: say, Man, thank you for sharing that, Chris, and thank you. We'll try to link to that writing for people to read in our show notes and for ourselves, for our listeners themselves. And also, of course, you know, one of the things that gave me so much hope when I was going through a lot of this was friends noticing things right and calling me and saying, Hey, you don't seem like yourself, right? And so what are some of the most common signs that we can notice in ourselves or noticed in others that we may need to ask a question to that they may be struggling with this?

Chris Hodges: Yeah, honestly, a lot of us don't notice that until we're actually in a dark place. So you do need to be surrounded with people who can say, Hey, man, something doesn't seem right here. And honestly, more people, in my opinion, would be alive today had we noticed and had the courage to really say, Hey, let me call you, let me check on you. What's going on? And for a lot of us, honestly, instead of ruminating instead of having what psychologists call self-talk that we pick up the phone or text, someone say, Hey, I'm not in a good place, and I would encourage listeners right now who who aren't in a good place. That is your next step is to let someone know, you know, whether it be a mental health hotline or a suicide hotline or a friend just saying, Dude, call me, check on me. I'm not doing well right now. But the more we think that people don't care or don't want to hear that, honestly, we will get deeper and deeper into that cave of depression

William Norvell: and such good advice. And I mean, hey, you can find us if you're listening to this and you got nobody. Find me. Find Henry. My guest is Chris Wood. Pick up to Rusty and Justin. Just it's so paramount to let someone know you can't do this alone. That's why God gave us other people. So just when a hammer that in and also I want to give you the chance, Chris. How are entrepreneurs, church planners, you know, and people building businesses? How do you? Have you seen them being especially vulnerable to these types of thoughts and these types of seasons?

Chris Hodges: Because we're used to highs and highs can we can start depending on adrenaline to get through things so you can actually be depressed. But when you get to work, you kind of feel good again. And a lot of that is masked by the effort that we're putting into accomplishing and, you know, getting the bottom line done. In my case, I'd be preaching or great screaming and hearing some amends and you walk off, you're thinking, Wow, that was, you know, I think I feel better. But an hour later, you're driving home and you're sitting on the couch and the crash happens again and again. What I would want people to hear and see that the great prophet Elijah, who arguably is the greatest prophet in the Bible because he's the only one that's included in the transfiguration of Jesus with Moses there. Many believe he's one of the two witnesses in the Book of Revelation. So like, this is an important figure who obviously had it together, who had these incredible emotional, spiritual in an entrepreneur award, these accomplishments in life and crashes minutes later versus later to a point where he's hiding under a. Re asking God to take his life. So I think part of the solution is just the realization that that can happen. Then we become more aware of ourselves. And honestly, practically, if you really want to know where this plays out for a guy like me as my wife knows this now, that the darkest moments for me are Sunday nights to this day, I feel more vulnerable to temptation to attack, to having bad thoughts after we've had incredible services just a couple of hours ago. And so my wife knows this. My friends know this. I get calls from my buddies. Hey, how was your day? How are you doing? How are you really doing? And my wife is staying by my side, you know, and we frankly were intentional about our closeness during those moments because we're just trying to be smart to the fact that we face these moments and we want to try to avoid the enemy taking advantage of them.

Rusty Rueff: Chris, our listeners have heard me many times quote the pastor that I grew up with in a Southern Baptist church used to say We change by invitation or we change my situation. And I really appreciate what you're talking about because there will be people who are listening today that this could be their invitation, right? Instead of getting to that situational moment that you described as a crash. And so I so appreciate you not only speaking into it, but the writing that you've done. And you mentioned it in the book. You know, there were six steps that Elijah got into the cave, but there were five steps that he took when he came out. Can you give us a little preview of that? Because it might well be that some of that hope and light that someone can't see today could be the thing that actually helps them recognize where they are.

Chris Hodges: So he gets visited by an angel. What's interesting? You think if you got visited by the angel, it gets real spiritual. Pretty quick, right? The first thing the Angel says is sleep. And then he says, eat. And then he said, sleep. And then he said, eat. So the first four commands were all about, Hey, let's just slow down a little bit and just kind of get yourself healthy here before he ever challenged him spiritually. What you would do next before you ever gave him, you know, a purpose for his life. He took attention to his physical rhythms. And honestly, when we're helping people to this day out of the Cave of Depression, the first questions are How are you sleeping? Are you taking a day off? Do you even know what the word Sabbath means? Can I help you slow down a little bit? You know, the Bible says better to have one hand full. You've got two, but only have one handful and have some tranquility than to have two handfuls and have toil in a chasing after the wind. Most people live to handful living. They do what's doable, but it's not something that's sustainable. So the first step in the process really is this gives some attention to our physical life and our rhythms. And then he had this God encounter, and I teach in the book, You know how you can pursue God in a way where he really responds to you because it's critical to you coming alive again. The third thing you did there was a clarity of his identity. So God wanted to make sure he knew who he was. The fourth thing was a new assignment. If I gave you only one, by the way, there was only one thing that I could give to help people out of the cave. A depression is, is the power of a project. This was Victor Franklin, the great Austrian psychiatrist that helped people out of the Holocaust. The purpose of life was not pleasure. It was meaning. And if you don't have meaning, your dull your life with pleasure. And so you have this purpose in life, this power of a project. And then the last thing he had a sustaining relationship. He never did life alone again. He had a partner named Elisha. And you never hear of Elijah getting depressed again.

Rusty Rueff: That's great. Can you go deeper into that part of the relationship side because, you know, stepping out of the cave depression into the light and having those people that can? And you mentioned yourself, the folks that know you so well that you get those calls on Sunday nights. How do we cultivate those kinds of relationships? Because, you know, those are relationships that have to be willing to speak truth to us, right? And shine, be a mirror of who we are back to them. How do we find those people and what do we say to them to give them a license to be that authentic and honest to us?

Chris Hodges: Yeah. Really, the secret is anything you want, you know, you'll reap that what you sow. So you might want to first become that person to someone. Hey, if you ever going through anything, I'd like to be the person you call. I think you foster relationships that you can benefit from. But then the dynamic, you know, there's a lot of verses around this that people just really don't realize. James, five 5:16 says, Confess your sins one to another, not to God one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed the way I say it is. You confess your sins to God for forgiveness, but you've got to confess your sins to someone else to find healing. You'll never get past the issue that you're facing without letting someone know what you're facing. The way I say it is, you'll always stay as sick as your secrets. So don't have any and you don't have to tell everybody, but you better. Tell somebody, C.S. Lewis said friendship is born at the moment that the person shares something like that and the other person says, what? You too. I thought I was the only one and what you're going to discover because there is a fear like, I can't let anybody know what I'm really thinking, but what you're going to get is that C.S. Lewis moment where they go? You too. I thought I was the only one and praise God that I have only about three people, by the way. Three pastor friends who know every thought, every temptation, every mistake, every day. I want to quit, right? And so now they're tuned in to it. They'll even call me and preempt it. Sometimes, you know, before I even get to them. And all of us need relationships like that.

Rusty Rueff: Yes, we do. We absolutely do. So, you know, so many times, entrepreneurs, we think we can handle this by ourselves. Right? That's what we do. And we show no vulnerability and we show no weakness and we go and we take care of it. What do you say to that person who's listening right now saying, Hey, all this is really good. Thanks so much. But you know, I got this.

Chris Hodges: I got this. Yeah, that would say that it's lonely at the top, you know, and people get there. And honestly, they find out that that's not really where they want to be, that there's nothing better in life than doing life for someone else. And they all know because they do it in their businesses that any idea they have is only as good as the people they have on their team cooperating and doing the same thing. Well, the same is true with your personal life. You can no more build a great business doing it alone. Build your life, then you can build a great business. It takes this cooperation and collaboration, and MIT are the worst because we would rather not let anybody know. Ladies by and large are more willing to share what they're facing, and but all of us need that kind of a friend. And so all I can say is I'm as Type-A as the next guy, right? And I love to accomplish and and do all those great things. But the best part of my life, and the reason why I'm even on this podcast today is that I've had friends who've protected me and know what I'm going through. You know, when I faced one of my darkest moments in 2020, I had friends who called me three times a day and people who were just like, Bro, I'm just checking on you again. You're good. You can make this. We got you. I'll fly to you right now if you need me and you just all of us need people like that.

Rusty Rueff: I want your friends. I mean, don't we all want those kinds of friends? That's a truly awesome. It's interesting that you met that mentioned, you know, men speaking to men or, you know, women. You know, I've been shopping for a new doctor and I was recommended to a woman doctor and I asked her, I said when we were doing a little meet and greet, I said, So you know, as a guy who says, you know, mid-year and aging, wouldn't it be better for me to have a male doctor who would be more sensitive to those things? And she goes, Well, I guess so. She goes, But I will tell you one thing you will tell me things that you will never tell a male doctor. Wow. And that was fascinating, because the fact that I was even talking to her about the question of a male voice, I wouldn't have ever asked the guy doctor. So I do think that there's certainly a difference there, you know, but we have to work harder. We have to work harder at it.

Chris Hodges: Absolutely. And maybe begin by doing it to someone else. Maybe begin just by being that friend for someone else. That's right.

Rusty Rueff: I'm going to turn it over to William to close here in a second. But you know, if you zoomed out for a moment and you think about the book and you think about, you know, the impact that it's having, what do you want to see change in the world? I mean, you're a pastor of one of the most successful growing churches in America. What's your hope for the world?

Chris Hodges: Yeah, my hope is that people have hope. Honestly, I think probably one of the most hopeful parts of the book is that while there are some very biological reasons for depression, that that does not comprise the vast majority of what causes depression. So there are some definite genetic and biological things that need to be treated biologically, medically. But for a lot of the vast majority of it, they are lifestyle related, which means there's a way out for those who have thought, I guess this is just my lot in life. This is what my life is going to look like. I think the greatest joy of writing this book is to let people know that there's hope and there is a way out and that God has meaning for your life. The genius of Victor Frankl when he wrote man's search for meaning this this Jewish psychiatrist who had a clinic to help the survivors of the Holocaust who watched their loved ones die not a single patient committed suicide on his watch because he helped them see the fact that all of us can have some meaningful work can do with the community of friends, and then we can take the pain that we've experienced in the suffering and help others by which we've experienced. And not a single person committed suicide on their watch, so I think pointing people in the direction of, Wow, there's a way to use what you've experienced to help a lot of other people, I'm hoping has great traction and gives people some great hope for the future of their lives. Hmm.

William Norvell: Amen reminds me of when I was wrestling with some of these things. Somebody sent me a great quote that, you know, I think it's rooted more in what you talked about. It comes out a little prosperity gospel ish, but it's more rooted in what you said, which was a treasure quote. That said, it's doubtful that God can use anyone greatly until he has hurt him deeply.

Chris Hodges: Yeah, exactly. Paul said it. He says, I comfort others with the same comfort I have received. And by the way, right before he said that, he said I wanted to take my life. He says my pressures were so great. This is Second Corinthians one. They were so great that I just didn't want to live. But I realized that God was using this for his purpose. And now, of course, you know, we know it's true. If somebody was struggling with cancer, they would much prefer someone who's probably lived through that experience. Pray for them and ministers. Then why? Because they understand. So for every person who's going through hard times, just remember this that God can use you with your hard times to be a blessing to others. And buddy, when you lay your head down at night knowing your life impacted the life of the others, there is no money, there is no salary, there is no business. There is there's nothing that life can give you. That is better than that.

William Norvell: Hmm. Thank you for that. I can't imagine there's a better place to move towards a closed door. I want to give you the opportunity, Chris, because this is such an important topic and we just can't spend enough time on it. Is there any other parting encouragement thoughts that you would have for entrepreneurs listening out there after you've sort of dived pretty deep into this topic?

Chris Hodges: Yeah, that I just I think we're living in the greatest generation ever that that is allowing some of these conversations to take place in other generations. There's been a stigma around mental health or depression or anxiety. And I think for one of the first times ever, we're talking about it, understanding it. We're kind of all telling our cave stories, you know what I'm saying? And it's giving people confidence to deal with some of their issues. And I would just want to tell them, there's a better life available to you that God wants to get involved in your life and give you a life that goes beyond anything you can attain in business or in anything that your endeavors or that God can give you this sense of meaning and fulfillment that supersedes the external. You know, the word happiness comes from the same word like happenstance, meaning you're happy because of your circumstance. Your happiness is circumstantially related. So if the weather is good, I'm happy. If it's bad, I'm not. But joy is different. Joy is not circumstantial. True fulfillment is internal regardless of circumstance, and that's available for every person.

Henry Kaestner: That's awesome. That's an incredible encouragement. Williams, can I ask a last question here in a second about what you're hearing from God and his word? But I want to throw in something that we're piloting out a little bit, which is for many of our yes, for all of our I guess hopefully we're going to ask them a question about where are they giving to? What are the things that are on your heart in your mind? The biblical message of generosity is such a big part of any Christ far discipleship journey. And definitely for an entrepreneur who spends a lot of time thinking about money. And maybe it's on this topic, maybe it's on mental health. But as entrepreneurs are leaning into giving an understanding that so many of these things are not necessarily just left for government, but we can get involved in and we can get involved in ministries that might be able to share eternal hope, not just temporal hope. Is there anything that jumps out at you that you and your wife like given to you?

Chris Hodges: Yeah, everything. Leadership related, honestly. You know, Jesus said the harvest is plentiful. The workers are few. We don't have a harvest problem. There's plenty to do. We know how to do it. We know how to fix it. We know how to feed people. We know how to care for people. We know how to preach to people. We don't have enough people doing it. The harvest is plentiful. The workers are few. So to me, one of the greatest investments ever that you could give to is into anything that's leadership related. So the things that my wife and I are contributing to, we have a college here that releases thousands of students into full time ministry, a first of its kind kind of a Christian university, but in the academy mindset called Highlands College. I'm involved in an effort with John Maxwell to train up Christian leaders around the world because everywhere there are good leaders, people flourish everywhere. There are poor leaders or lack of leaders. People aren't flourishing. You look anywhere around the world, and that is the one distinguishing factor that determines the flourishing of people, and that is the quality of leadership in those areas.

Henry Kaestner: That's an awesome answer, and I love the way that you, of course, rooted in scripture, and I've never really reflected on it that way. So thank you.

Chris Hodges: You're welcome. Thank you.

William Norvell: And as we move to that, Chris, where we do love to close, is just trying to understand. And where where God has you in his living word today? You know, and that could be something you've been meditating on for a bit that came out of the book or it could be something God put in front of you this morning. But we just love to invite you to share where, in God's word, he's walking with you during this time.

Chris Hodges: Yes. You know, as I'm getting older, I'm honestly trying to make my life every moment of my life count. And so actually, my life, I think, is in some way more effective but simpler at the same time. And I'm just really focused a lot on my pace. That verse that I quoted already in Ecclesiastes that says, you know, it's better to have a one handful kind of a life that not everything that is doable is sustainable. And so honestly, I mean, kind of like the tithes you get more accomplished when you give God the first and honor him that he can do more than 90 percent. Then when you've kept it the whole, I'm trying to think of that in terms of time as well, that, you know, working up for my life into fewer things that have more of an effect. And honestly, the reward of that is, I think, more effectiveness, but also, you know, tranquility of really a peace in the soul. And so to me, it's all about pace. I think for the first time in my life, I'm learning what it means to truly take real Sabbaths and really honor God with the first of my life. And so those are the reflections right now. And I think I think they're important for a lot of us because the world is demanding a whole lot more of us. And if you don't have a clarity and a priority for your life, trust me, someone else does. And all of us know that that lead anything that there's a pull on us in every direction. So I had this phrase of kind of finish my thought with this. I began the year with this and never, never had this thought before. And it's called selective ignorance, selective ignorance. So I could. No, but do I nearly need to know? And so for me, I was getting really consumed with the news coming out of the political season coming out of 2020. And I found I wasn't watching, you know, 30 minutes. I was watching an hour of news shows and then reading it, and then I had an app about it. And now I'm giving myself about ten minutes a day to get caught up what's in the world. And it's only you're in reading and not in video, not in any news shows. And I know all that I need to know, and there's a whole lot more peace in my soul. And so I would encourage the listeners to perhaps make a list of some selective ignorance areas, things that you just don't have to know. For some people, that's going to be, you know, it's time to get off of so much social media. Or maybe totally, you know, just the constantly knowing what everybody's wearing, doing, eating, traveling to do, you really have to know. And I think therein lies peace for ourselves.

William Norvell: Hmm. Amen. I'll try to in this in a pastor joke of my pastor on selective ignorance. He gave this great talk. One time, he and his wife took a month off after seven years and they shut their phones off and they tried their best right. Of course, they failed sometimes. But he joked one day that they just came up with this phrase and, you know, they were sitting at lunch one day and, you know, Dove flew by and actually said, I wonder what a baby dove looks like. And Dave said, Let's just not know exactly everything. They're like talking point for so much because it's so quick to run to your just information overload. And they just started saying things like, let's just not know what happened there or what that is. Or, you know, there was a day when you just didn't know, you know, and your life was OK. And I love that phrase selective ignorance and something I'm going to try to put into practice. And just so grateful for you, Chris. You shed light and I can't wait for people to pick up the book and to learn about this incredibly important topic that plagues so many entrepreneurs in the world. So, so grateful for you and your ministry.

Chris Hodges: Thanks to I enjoyed it.